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	<title>Comments on: 4E D&amp;D: We&#8217;re just not having fun</title>
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	<description>One gamer's opinion of everything RPG</description>
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		<title>By: Joe Rogers</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2627</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:04:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2627</guid>
		<description>I agree with the HP thinng.. I tend to &#039;round&#039; up damage... if a monster is on 75 hitpoints and takes 18 points of damage rather than put its life at 57 I&#039;ll put it at a nice 55... I think a good GM can sense when it is going to turn into &#039;i hit i miss i hit i miss&#039; which is a bad thing</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the HP thinng.. I tend to &#8217;round&#8217; up damage&#8230; if a monster is on 75 hitpoints and takes 18 points of damage rather than put its life at 57 I&#8217;ll put it at a nice 55&#8230; I think a good GM can sense when it is going to turn into &#8216;i hit i miss i hit i miss&#8217; which is a bad thing</p>
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		<title>By: Capt_Poco</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2595</link>
		<dc:creator>Capt_Poco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 03:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2595</guid>
		<description>Sorry, double post!
The OP mentioned that powers don&#039;t allow for much creativity, especially with Wizards. Actually, I hold the opposite view. 

Take for example, Burning Hands. On the surface, not much creativity there. Fan of flame, bat guano and sulpher, yadda yadda. It&#039;s quite possibly the most overused Wizard spell out there, ever since first edition. But! In 4e, mechanics are completely separate from story and flavor. This allows you to reflavor things without affecting game balance. After all, Burning Hands is just a Int vs Ref; Close blast 5; 2d6+ INT mod encounter power. The blast can be anything. Cone of cold, poison nova, gust of wind, corpse explosion, etc etc. In my games, the title and flavor text of powers are just guidelines, there to get the creative juices flowing. After all, a PC reading his powers from the PH is like a DM reading his encounters from the module: Boring!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, double post!<br />
The OP mentioned that powers don&#8217;t allow for much creativity, especially with Wizards. Actually, I hold the opposite view. </p>
<p>Take for example, Burning Hands. On the surface, not much creativity there. Fan of flame, bat guano and sulpher, yadda yadda. It&#8217;s quite possibly the most overused Wizard spell out there, ever since first edition. But! In 4e, mechanics are completely separate from story and flavor. This allows you to reflavor things without affecting game balance. After all, Burning Hands is just a Int vs Ref; Close blast 5; 2d6+ INT mod encounter power. The blast can be anything. Cone of cold, poison nova, gust of wind, corpse explosion, etc etc. In my games, the title and flavor text of powers are just guidelines, there to get the creative juices flowing. After all, a PC reading his powers from the PH is like a DM reading his encounters from the module: Boring!</p>
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		<title>By: Capt_Poco</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2594</link>
		<dc:creator>Capt_Poco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 02:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2594</guid>
		<description>Something which hasn&#039;t been mentioned yet is rolling for monster hitpoints. Every other edition has rolling for hitpoints, why not 4e? Simply grab a number of dice whose sides add up to the monster&#039;s HP, or thereabouts. So a 45 HP monster could have, say, 2d20 plus 1d6 hitpoints. On average, it halves hitpoints, but you don&#039;t get that nagging &quot;oh I&#039;m fudging the rules&quot; feeling afterwards. 

Monsters retreating when bloodied is a good idea, especially with intelligent monsters. However, it is also useful to remind players that the Intimidate skill can be used to scare off bloodied monsters. Encourage players to take advantage of this, and you&#039;ve shortened your combat without changing any rules. 

In my mind, stopwatches make the game a little *too* tense. I roleplay to relax, not to be put in the hotseat. That said, I&#039;m sure some players will enjoy the added tension a stopwatch can bring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something which hasn&#8217;t been mentioned yet is rolling for monster hitpoints. Every other edition has rolling for hitpoints, why not 4e? Simply grab a number of dice whose sides add up to the monster&#8217;s HP, or thereabouts. So a 45 HP monster could have, say, 2d20 plus 1d6 hitpoints. On average, it halves hitpoints, but you don&#8217;t get that nagging &#8220;oh I&#8217;m fudging the rules&#8221; feeling afterwards. </p>
<p>Monsters retreating when bloodied is a good idea, especially with intelligent monsters. However, it is also useful to remind players that the Intimidate skill can be used to scare off bloodied monsters. Encourage players to take advantage of this, and you&#8217;ve shortened your combat without changing any rules. </p>
<p>In my mind, stopwatches make the game a little *too* tense. I roleplay to relax, not to be put in the hotseat. That said, I&#8217;m sure some players will enjoy the added tension a stopwatch can bring.</p>
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		<title>By: Covertfun</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2583</link>
		<dc:creator>Covertfun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 00:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2583</guid>
		<description>I can heartily recommend the use of a stop watch/chess clock.
If I&#039;m DM, everyone has 5 seconds (on their turn) to declare their actions or they lose their place in the initiative order. (we allow time to roll/resolve, but the deciding must be done _fast_).

This rule was born because combat where you allow players to um and ah and consult runs like TREACLE.

Once it was introduced, it brought back a delicious edge of panic and the chance of making serious errors - especially if the characters are ambushed, it was great.

When I&#039;m a player, a stop watch would be gauche, and I just try to set a good example.

Anyway, that&#039;s my recommendation: a bit of pressure during the combat not only rushes it to conclusion, but also makes it more dramatic and fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can heartily recommend the use of a stop watch/chess clock.<br />
If I&#8217;m DM, everyone has 5 seconds (on their turn) to declare their actions or they lose their place in the initiative order. (we allow time to roll/resolve, but the deciding must be done _fast_).</p>
<p>This rule was born because combat where you allow players to um and ah and consult runs like TREACLE.</p>
<p>Once it was introduced, it brought back a delicious edge of panic and the chance of making serious errors &#8211; especially if the characters are ambushed, it was great.</p>
<p>When I&#8217;m a player, a stop watch would be gauche, and I just try to set a good example.</p>
<p>Anyway, that&#8217;s my recommendation: a bit of pressure during the combat not only rushes it to conclusion, but also makes it more dramatic and fun.</p>
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		<title>By: ElMaughan</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2576</link>
		<dc:creator>ElMaughan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2576</guid>
		<description>When I was young (late 70s and early 80s) - we loved playing D&amp;D.  As our group matured we started looking at other systems and I came accross a game system called Rolemaster by ICE.  WOW - this system was awesome in the number of character classes, spells, balance, realism, and fun.  I know that Rolemaster has been nicknamed &quot;Chartmaster&quot; but this is easy to control based on how much crunch one wants to add, and the system is very adaptable in this reguard.  Add detail where you want it - fudge it where you do not.

ICE has a good web site (ironcrown.com) with a good active forum.  Again - love the system - far more than any version of D&amp;D (especially 4).  I like a game where roleplaying is more emphasised with a good touch of realism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was young (late 70s and early 80s) &#8211; we loved playing D&amp;D.  As our group matured we started looking at other systems and I came accross a game system called Rolemaster by ICE.  WOW &#8211; this system was awesome in the number of character classes, spells, balance, realism, and fun.  I know that Rolemaster has been nicknamed &#8220;Chartmaster&#8221; but this is easy to control based on how much crunch one wants to add, and the system is very adaptable in this reguard.  Add detail where you want it &#8211; fudge it where you do not.</p>
<p>ICE has a good web site (ironcrown.com) with a good active forum.  Again &#8211; love the system &#8211; far more than any version of D&amp;D (especially 4).  I like a game where roleplaying is more emphasised with a good touch of realism.</p>
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		<title>By: Mean Eyed Cat</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2422</link>
		<dc:creator>Mean Eyed Cat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 06:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2422</guid>
		<description>Oh, and one other thing I forgot to mention is that I also started to encourage the &quot;Page 42 Rule.&quot;  For those that aren&#039;t familiar with this, its the additional rules on page 42 of the DMG or &quot;Actions the Rules Don&#039;t Cover.&quot;  During one of our last encounters, one of my player&#039;s decided that instead of killing the Hippogriff he was fighting, he wanted to break it instead.  In the end, he was able to get a new Hippogriff mount and it made the encounter more enjoyable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and one other thing I forgot to mention is that I also started to encourage the &#8220;Page 42 Rule.&#8221;  For those that aren&#8217;t familiar with this, its the additional rules on page 42 of the DMG or &#8220;Actions the Rules Don&#8217;t Cover.&#8221;  During one of our last encounters, one of my player&#8217;s decided that instead of killing the Hippogriff he was fighting, he wanted to break it instead.  In the end, he was able to get a new Hippogriff mount and it made the encounter more enjoyable.</p>
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		<title>By: Mean Eyed Cat</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2421</link>
		<dc:creator>Mean Eyed Cat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Feb 2009 06:15:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2421</guid>
		<description>My group is currently in a 4e campaign and we&#039;ve also started to run into long combats more than a few times.  Lately, however, I started to make a few changes to liven things up.  

First off, I&#039;m starting to have monsters &amp; NPCs run away a lot more.  Usually when they become bloodied.  Also, I&#039;m putting more obstacles into the encounter; poor lighting/darkness, deep snow, stairs, etc.  One of the last encounters we ran, I had a log over a slimy creek.  Lots of Acrobatics checks and falls into the water while fighting.

And in between combats I usually try to put in non-combat encounters; traps, puzzles, role-playing encounters.  I think we&#039;ve finally mastered skill challenges.  It took awhile, but these make for very interesting encounters and I highly recommend them.  In fact I&#039;ve had combats turn into skill challenges and vice versa.

In the past, when we played 3.5 edition, we would take breaks and try different games/systems to break up the monotony (because combats in 3rd edition also dragged on).  That&#039;s always good.  However, with 4th edition, my group wants to soldier on -- despite the sometimes lengthy combats.  I think this is because I decided to award twice the xp.  They get really excited when they advance a level and get cool new powers and feats :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My group is currently in a 4e campaign and we&#8217;ve also started to run into long combats more than a few times.  Lately, however, I started to make a few changes to liven things up.  </p>
<p>First off, I&#8217;m starting to have monsters &amp; NPCs run away a lot more.  Usually when they become bloodied.  Also, I&#8217;m putting more obstacles into the encounter; poor lighting/darkness, deep snow, stairs, etc.  One of the last encounters we ran, I had a log over a slimy creek.  Lots of Acrobatics checks and falls into the water while fighting.</p>
<p>And in between combats I usually try to put in non-combat encounters; traps, puzzles, role-playing encounters.  I think we&#8217;ve finally mastered skill challenges.  It took awhile, but these make for very interesting encounters and I highly recommend them.  In fact I&#8217;ve had combats turn into skill challenges and vice versa.</p>
<p>In the past, when we played 3.5 edition, we would take breaks and try different games/systems to break up the monotony (because combats in 3rd edition also dragged on).  That&#8217;s always good.  However, with 4th edition, my group wants to soldier on &#8212; despite the sometimes lengthy combats.  I think this is because I decided to award twice the xp.  They get really excited when they advance a level and get cool new powers and feats <img src='http://rpgcentric.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: binaryturing</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2384</link>
		<dc:creator>binaryturing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 23:21:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2384</guid>
		<description>@reveal - i&#039;ll take a look at World of Darkness and Hollow Earth Expedition.

We&#039;re a bunch of older gamers who have either been away from gaming for a long time or are completely new to D&amp;D.

Not really keen or able to spend many hours figuring out complicated rules.

The biggest surprise for me so far came after looking over my newly purchased &#039;Castles and Crusaders&#039; materiel: it WAS simpler, and it looked like it was going to be a lot less fun.  

We all enjoy 3.5, maybe I&#039;ll have a chat with the group and see if they want me to &#039;wing it&#039; a bit more with the rules.  I already allow lots of leeway, (for example straight lines when charging, running)
Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@reveal &#8211; i&#8217;ll take a look at World of Darkness and Hollow Earth Expedition.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re a bunch of older gamers who have either been away from gaming for a long time or are completely new to D&amp;D.</p>
<p>Not really keen or able to spend many hours figuring out complicated rules.</p>
<p>The biggest surprise for me so far came after looking over my newly purchased &#8216;Castles and Crusaders&#8217; materiel: it WAS simpler, and it looked like it was going to be a lot less fun.  </p>
<p>We all enjoy 3.5, maybe I&#8217;ll have a chat with the group and see if they want me to &#8216;wing it&#8217; a bit more with the rules.  I already allow lots of leeway, (for example straight lines when charging, running)<br />
Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: reveal</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2382</link>
		<dc:creator>reveal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 23:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2382</guid>
		<description>@binaryturning - Sorry for not getting back to you before. I forgot about the Monte Cook article, but I hope it works for you. Have you guys thought about a different system? Maybe World of Darkness or Hollow Earth Expedition? Both are geared more towards fluff than crunch and the combat system in both is such that it runs quickly and smoothly. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@binaryturning &#8211; Sorry for not getting back to you before. I forgot about the Monte Cook article, but I hope it works for you. Have you guys thought about a different system? Maybe World of Darkness or Hollow Earth Expedition? Both are geared more towards fluff than crunch and the combat system in both is such that it runs quickly and smoothly. <img src='http://rpgcentric.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: binaryturing</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2380</link>
		<dc:creator>binaryturing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 21:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2380</guid>
		<description>thanks d7,
I checked out the article.
I&#039;m going to follow the advice there. 
Perhaps a first step will be to play on a battlemat without squares (we have heaps of mini&#039;s thanks to a former dm who collected everything for age of worms and my brief &#039;addiction&#039; to buying lead minis on ebay).
There are going to be some huuuge squawks when figuring out who is where when the are of effect spells come down!
I appreciate the time you took to read my rambling comment and to respond.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks d7,<br />
I checked out the article.<br />
I&#8217;m going to follow the advice there.<br />
Perhaps a first step will be to play on a battlemat without squares (we have heaps of mini&#8217;s thanks to a former dm who collected everything for age of worms and my brief &#8216;addiction&#8217; to buying lead minis on ebay).<br />
There are going to be some huuuge squawks when figuring out who is where when the are of effect spells come down!<br />
I appreciate the time you took to read my rambling comment and to respond.</p>
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		<title>By: d7</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2378</link>
		<dc:creator>d7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2378</guid>
		<description>Hi binaryturing.

Monte Cook apparently intended 3.0 to be runnable without miniatures if a group wanted. His advice on how to adapt D&amp;D to gridless play is here: http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly21.html

I haven&#039;t tried it myself, but it&#039;s the sort of thing that I would need to do if I ever returned to 3e.

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;d7´s last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://d7.pipemaze.com/blog/2009/01/18/burning-wheel-initial-impressions/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Burning Wheel initial impressions&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi binaryturing.</p>
<p>Monte Cook apparently intended 3.0 to be runnable without miniatures if a group wanted. His advice on how to adapt D&amp;D to gridless play is here: <a href="http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly21.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.montecook.com/arch_dmonly21.html</a></p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t tried it myself, but it&#8217;s the sort of thing that I would need to do if I ever returned to 3e.</p>
<p><abbr><em>d7´s last blog post..<a href="http://d7.pipemaze.com/blog/2009/01/18/burning-wheel-initial-impressions/" rel="nofollow">Burning Wheel initial impressions</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: binaryturing</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2374</link>
		<dc:creator>binaryturing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 19:20:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2374</guid>
		<description>Glad, well relieved, to hear other people are having so many problems.

I&#039;m DMng a group through the Shackled City Adventure Path (6 players, 3.5).

We all like fun feats, and we don&#039;t see how to preserve them while removing the battlemat.

For a number of reasons, we have chosen not to switch to 4E.  For this discussion, the main reason is it doesn&#039;t solve any of the combat issues (too slow).

Last Christmas a couple of us bought a starter back from Troll Lord Games.  And we were bitterly disappointed.  Despite the crowing on the Troll Lords Site, the materials turned out to be shoddy.  

Good to hear about other options for combat systems.  

Has anyone &#039;experimented&#039; with 3.5 battlemat rules (maybe changing/removing feats tied to tactical movement)?

This issue isn&#039;t going to end our game, and it might just be a function of our group being older...but combat takes up so much of our time.

 I believe &#039;fluff&#039; is the game and &#039;crunch&#039; is not as important, hope you know what I mean</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad, well relieved, to hear other people are having so many problems.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m DMng a group through the Shackled City Adventure Path (6 players, 3.5).</p>
<p>We all like fun feats, and we don&#8217;t see how to preserve them while removing the battlemat.</p>
<p>For a number of reasons, we have chosen not to switch to 4E.  For this discussion, the main reason is it doesn&#8217;t solve any of the combat issues (too slow).</p>
<p>Last Christmas a couple of us bought a starter back from Troll Lord Games.  And we were bitterly disappointed.  Despite the crowing on the Troll Lords Site, the materials turned out to be shoddy.  </p>
<p>Good to hear about other options for combat systems.  </p>
<p>Has anyone &#8216;experimented&#8217; with 3.5 battlemat rules (maybe changing/removing feats tied to tactical movement)?</p>
<p>This issue isn&#8217;t going to end our game, and it might just be a function of our group being older&#8230;but combat takes up so much of our time.</p>
<p> I believe &#8216;fluff&#8217; is the game and &#8216;crunch&#8217; is not as important, hope you know what I mean</p>
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		<title>By: reveal</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2350</link>
		<dc:creator>reveal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 02:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2350</guid>
		<description>@Josh W. - Thanks for the suggestion but I don&#039;t like the skill challenge system either. I guess I just can&#039;t be satisfied! ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Josh W. &#8211; Thanks for the suggestion but I don&#8217;t like the skill challenge system either. I guess I just can&#8217;t be satisfied! <img src='http://rpgcentric.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Josh W</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2349</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 01:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2349</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know how much of a game designer you are, but why not just turn it into a skill challenge?
You have, in the powers list, a huge supply of potential character actions, with level range appropriateness, so if you want to do something, check it&#039;s level, and if it&#039;s appropriate compared to other stuff, you can do it.

But how do you do magic vs tactical tricks vs attacks? You just hit different defences as the dcs, and then get to grant bonuses to the people doing the hitting.

There&#039;s probably much more you can do that is interesting, but that&#039;s a very rough outline.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know how much of a game designer you are, but why not just turn it into a skill challenge?<br />
You have, in the powers list, a huge supply of potential character actions, with level range appropriateness, so if you want to do something, check it&#8217;s level, and if it&#8217;s appropriate compared to other stuff, you can do it.</p>
<p>But how do you do magic vs tactical tricks vs attacks? You just hit different defences as the dcs, and then get to grant bonuses to the people doing the hitting.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s probably much more you can do that is interesting, but that&#8217;s a very rough outline.</p>
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		<title>By: reveal</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2177</link>
		<dc:creator>reveal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 21:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2177</guid>
		<description>@Anthony - We&#039;re trying a Hollow Earth Expedition one-shot this weekend. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Anthony &#8211; We&#8217;re trying a Hollow Earth Expedition one-shot this weekend. <img src='http://rpgcentric.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2175</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 21:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2175</guid>
		<description>Try some game COMPLETELY different -- different genre and different feel. When I get to the point your group has with D&amp;D, I go to Palladium&#039;s System&#039;s Failure. It&#039;s an obscure rpg using Palladiums somewhat clunky engine, but it&#039;s corny as heck and a lot of fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try some game COMPLETELY different &#8212; different genre and different feel. When I get to the point your group has with D&amp;D, I go to Palladium&#8217;s System&#8217;s Failure. It&#8217;s an obscure rpg using Palladiums somewhat clunky engine, but it&#8217;s corny as heck and a lot of fun.</p>
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		<title>By: georg</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2097</link>
		<dc:creator>georg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2097</guid>
		<description>Funny, my group seems to be the complete opposite.  They live for the combat, and love the 4e ruleset specifically because of the tactical minutia.  I even let them strategize a little bit ala wargaming, because I play the hell out of the monsters, and don&#039;t scale down published adventures even though they only have 4 PCs.  

Definitely in the minority, I suppose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny, my group seems to be the complete opposite.  They live for the combat, and love the 4e ruleset specifically because of the tactical minutia.  I even let them strategize a little bit ala wargaming, because I play the hell out of the monsters, and don&#8217;t scale down published adventures even though they only have 4 PCs.  </p>
<p>Definitely in the minority, I suppose.</p>
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		<title>By: d7</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2076</link>
		<dc:creator>d7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 06:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2076</guid>
		<description>We had a similar experience with 4e. I worked everyone&#039;s enthusiasm up and launched the game to much enjoyment. However, it eventually lost its shine and started to be a drag. It was the combat for us, too.

I switched to 1st edition AD&amp;D to get back to my roots and it&#039;s fun. I do miss a sane skill system, though I enjoy how it expect the player to think about and interact with their character&#039;s environment rather than just say, &quot;Do I Spot anything?&quot; Combat is still a pain, though for different reasons. It&#039;s hard to challenge the players without accidentally killing them.

For fast yet crunchy combat that puts a lot of choice in the players&#039; hands I&#039;m currently demoing Savage World for my group. I think it&#039;s going to satisfy what I want from a system, and I&#039;m currently working up material to use it as the engine for a non-D&amp;D Forgotten Realms campaign.

(The anti-spam captcha for this comment was &quot;D6&quot;. Apropos.)

&lt;abbr&gt;&lt;em&gt;d7´s last blog post..&lt;a href=&quot;http://d7.pipemaze.com/blog/2008/11/21/savage-worlds-actual-play/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Savage Worlds actual play&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We had a similar experience with 4e. I worked everyone&#8217;s enthusiasm up and launched the game to much enjoyment. However, it eventually lost its shine and started to be a drag. It was the combat for us, too.</p>
<p>I switched to 1st edition AD&amp;D to get back to my roots and it&#8217;s fun. I do miss a sane skill system, though I enjoy how it expect the player to think about and interact with their character&#8217;s environment rather than just say, &#8220;Do I Spot anything?&#8221; Combat is still a pain, though for different reasons. It&#8217;s hard to challenge the players without accidentally killing them.</p>
<p>For fast yet crunchy combat that puts a lot of choice in the players&#8217; hands I&#8217;m currently demoing Savage World for my group. I think it&#8217;s going to satisfy what I want from a system, and I&#8217;m currently working up material to use it as the engine for a non-D&amp;D Forgotten Realms campaign.</p>
<p>(The anti-spam captcha for this comment was &#8220;D6&#8243;. Apropos.)</p>
<p><abbr><em>d7´s last blog post..<a href="http://d7.pipemaze.com/blog/2008/11/21/savage-worlds-actual-play/" rel="nofollow">Savage Worlds actual play</a></em></abbr></p>
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		<title>By: Reed</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2040</link>
		<dc:creator>Reed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2040</guid>
		<description>We did a 4e game on release that ended around a month ago. By the end of the game we more or less skipped combat because we all hated it so much. Since then we&#039;ve switched it up and have been trying out the ORE systems, mostly Wild Talents. I picked up Reign recently to look at running a high fantasy game. The ORE system is very nice so far. It take a little getting used to but once that is done it&#039;s very slick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We did a 4e game on release that ended around a month ago. By the end of the game we more or less skipped combat because we all hated it so much. Since then we&#8217;ve switched it up and have been trying out the ORE systems, mostly Wild Talents. I picked up Reign recently to look at running a high fantasy game. The ORE system is very nice so far. It take a little getting used to but once that is done it&#8217;s very slick.</p>
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		<title>By: reveal</title>
		<link>http://rpgcentric.com/4e-dd-were-just-not-having-fun.html/comment-page-1#comment-2001</link>
		<dc:creator>reveal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://rpgcentric.com/?p=435#comment-2001</guid>
		<description>@Swordgleam - To me, 4E is really geared towards combat. You&#039;re right, any system can be used if all you want to do is roleplay. But when a system is written in such a way that almost all of your options helped you in one aspect of the game only (combat), that&#039;s a design flaw. Combat&#039;s in 4E are long and can become very tedious. They are much more tactical in nature than they used to be and, honestly, it plays more like a video game than an RPG (in combat).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Swordgleam &#8211; To me, 4E is really geared towards combat. You&#8217;re right, any system can be used if all you want to do is roleplay. But when a system is written in such a way that almost all of your options helped you in one aspect of the game only (combat), that&#8217;s a design flaw. Combat&#8217;s in 4E are long and can become very tedious. They are much more tactical in nature than they used to be and, honestly, it plays more like a video game than an RPG (in combat).</p>
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