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Has 4E D&D become deadlier than 3E?

During the last few sessions of our campaign, some of the players have mentioned that they think 4E is deadlier than 3E. This is probably due to the fact that we have had two character deaths total and at least three characters make death saving throws each session. Personally, I think 4E is a little deadlier but some in my group seem to want to “blame” the difficulty on 4E “requiring” you to have at least one Defender to soak up damage and at least one Leader to help heal. I disagree. To me, I think it boils down to one simple reason; the enemies are tougher.

Tougher? How so?

To answer this question, I’m going to compare two monsters that everyone knows and are staples of almost every D&D game; the kobold and the goblin. For the 4E kobold, I will use the Kobold Skirmisher from the 4E Monster Manual. For the 4E goblin, I will use the Goblin Warrior from the same book. To make this comparable to a 3E monster, I will give the 3E kobold one level in fighter and do the same for the 3E goblin.

The reason I gave the 3E monsters a level in fighter is because a standard kobold and a standard goblin are essentially minions. And if you hit a minion once, it’s down. I also gave them each Power Attack since that seems to be a standard first level fighter feat.

3E Kobold Fighter 1

HP: 9
Attack: +2 spear (+0 spear with PA)
Damage: 1d6-1 (1d6+1 with PA)
Feat: Power Attack
Special abilities: None

4E Kobold Skirmisher (Level 1 Skirmisher)

HP: 27
Attack: +6 spear
Damage: 1d8
Special abilities: Gains 1d6 damage against enemy if it has combat advantage, gains a +1 bonus to attack per ally adjacent to target, can shift one square at-will.

Wow. That’s one beefy kobold. Even though they don’t do that much more damage than they used to if it’s just a PC one-on-one with a kobold, the odds of them hitting the PC just rose 200%. Plus those abilities give them a definite advantage. And that’s someone a first level character is more than likely going to run in to at one point. What about the goblin?

3E Goblin Fighter 1

HP: 10
Attack: +3 morningstar (+1 morningstar with PA)
Damage: 1d6 (1d6+2 with PA)
Feat: Power Attack
Special abilities: None

4E Goblin Warrior (Level 1 Skirmisher)

HP: 29
Attack: +6 spear
Damage: 1d8+2
Special abilities:Can move up to half its speed and make a ranged attack without provoking an OA, deals an extra 1d6 damage on a ranged attack if it moves at least 4 squares away from its starting point, can shift one square at-will if someone misses it with a melee attack.

Just like the kobold, they don’t do a terrible amount more damage, but the odds of them hitting the PC rose 100%. And they definitely have some new abilities that will make them tougher adversaries.

Conclusion

All in all, the low-level creatures that a first level PC will more than likely meet in 4E have been given an overhaul. They have more hit points, do more damage, and have more abilities than their 3E counterparts. No longer does doing max damage with a longsword mean that the pesky kobold or goblin automatically goes down in one hit.

What do you think? I have heard, and read, people talk about 4E being more deadly. Do you think it’s because of the enemies being tougher? Is it because it’s more tactical? Does it hinge solely on party balance? I look forward to hearing from you.

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Posted in: 4E, Reviews

9 Responses to “Has 4E D&D become deadlier than 3E?”

Ovinomancer July 3rd, 2008 at 12:08 PM

No, I don’t. While the mosters you provided did get much better at consistantly laying out smack, the characters got just as much better at taking it. And therein lies the problem: paradigm shift. In 4e you can take far more punishment, and players/DMS aren’t used to how the new combat balance affects play. This results in players getting in over thier head. Back in the halcyon days of 3.x and even earlier, 1st level characters had no hitpoints. One or two hits put most of them down, even if the critters did low damage (d6-1 kobolds, for instance). So, after a hit or two on party members, they stopped and recharged. Not so in 4e. You have a ton of hitpoints; you drop scads of critters with one hit; you’re unprepared for 100+ hp bad guys at 1st level. It’s not that it’s more deadly, it’s that players are made overconfident until they hit that uber-critter wall. Give it some time for players to adjust, and I think the death rates will come down.

reveal July 3rd, 2008 at 12:15 PM

@Ovinomancer – While I agree that, eventually, the death rates will come down because of players getting used to their powers, I still think that, overall, the enemies are simply tougher in fights. And that, to me, is what makes it deadlier. In 3E, a 1st level fighter could easily chop almost any kobold he met in half with one blow. In 4E, that’s not the case. The enemy not only can take a hit better, they can hit you more often, and they can now do more damage to you. Whether or not a player know their abilities doesn’t change that.

skade July 3rd, 2008 at 1:22 PM

The enemies have certainly gained sustainability and prowess, but so too have the player characters. I don’t think I would dismiss your players thoughts that the leader and defender roles are necessary to game play without seeing what the game is like with them in play. A first level character is doing more damage than they ever did at 1st level in 3.x, they have more hit points, and more ways of sustaining their lives. I think it more likely that the changes to players and monsters are approximately equal, and that the roles so central to class and monster design need to be taken into consideration.

reveal July 3rd, 2008 at 1:46 PM

@skade – We’ve played with both types of characters and haven’t seen much of a difference in lethality of enemies with or without those archetypes.

Myth July 3rd, 2008 at 7:23 PM

I’d also recommend comparing, say, orcs between editions: 3.0 orcs could easily kill even the toughest level 1 characters with a single crit, and 3.5 orcs reliably dropped most PCs with a single attack.

That said… the new edition does feel a little tougher, but I think it is more from needing to adjust to playing a smarter game. 3rd Edition was filled with constant character death from poorly balanced CRs… or from a single unlucky roll (fail a save, enemy rolls a crit – bam! Game over.)

4th Edition deaths, on the other hand, come from poor tactics more often than poor luck. I suspect this means that there will be a little bit of an initial learning curve as all the old-timers realize that charging into the midst of the enemy is longer the easy solution for victory.

reveal July 3rd, 2008 at 7:31 PM

@Myth – I can’t compare orcs because, in 4E, Orc Skirmishers are 3rd level enemies. Even they’re tougher now!

Nimblegrund July 4th, 2008 at 1:01 AM

I still think that we may need to explore roles a bit more. We did have all four roles for that battle, but we were split up, which is usually not the best strategy. I was too far away to help the defender, who really should have been my chief concern, and the two of us just couldn’t take the heat. Probably would have been a tpk if it hadn’t been for that 20 I rolled.

Gwyd July 4th, 2008 at 11:11 PM

My initial thoughts are similar to Ovi’s. We have been running through KotS, and I’m finding that the opponents themselves are not that much more lethal (and possibly less so, thanks to the marking abilities of the hunter, fighter, and paladin) than 3rd edition.

So far, the lethality of the game comes from not knowing when to stop – not utilizing our encounter or daily powers appropriately, managing our healing surges, when the cleric should heal vs let the fight bleed a bit, etc. We had a TPK in our first night because we didn’t know to expect NPCs with 100 hps at 1st level. Once we realized that, however…we came back with another set of pregenerated characters and mopped the floor with everything we encountered.

The fights are far more tactical, and far less forgiving of players who don’t take tactics into consideration. One of our players is a chaotic, ‘rush in and hit whatever happens to be closest’ kind of guy, and he is responsible for making our fights challenging. Compared to a CR 1 orc getting a lucky critical hit with his greataxe and one-shotting any 1st level PC…I have to go with a resounding ‘NIMHO.’

reveal July 5th, 2008 at 11:24 AM

@Gwyd – Good points. However, even though tactics are more important in 4E, that I definitely agree with, the fact that the enemies are tougher forces the PCs to change the way they’ve fought enemies in the past.