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Here comes the option train!

Today’s post is a combination of two things: A rant and a follow-up to this post.

Holy ***. That’s right; holy ****.

I’m a big fan of capitalism. I’m also a big fan of Wizards of the Coast. But, holy ****, they are milking the hell out of 4E. The 4E PHB was released on June 6, 2008. The PHB2 has a street date of March 17, 2009. Nine months. And in that time frame, players will have 16 core classes to choose from (Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock, Warlord, and Wizard from PHB1 and Avenger, Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Invoker, Shaman, Sorcerer, and Warden from PHB2)with each class having multiple powers to choose from. Martial characters have Martial Powers (the book) from which to choose more powers. There will be 13 core races to choose from (Dragongborn, Dwarf, Eladrin, Elf, Half-Elf, Halfling, Human, and Tiefling from PHB 1 and Deva (new name for Aasimar), Gnome, Half-Orc, Goliath, and Shifter from PHB2). We also have 1491 magic items (602 in PHB1 and 889 in Adventurer’s Vault). Who knows how many will be in the PHB2 and Adventurer’s Vault 2!

And this is all just core! There are races and classes in the Forgotten Realms books (Drow and Genasi for races and the Swordmage as a class). Manual of the Planes has a new race (Bladelings). Eberron will certainly have a new class in the Artificer, at least, and the Warforged as a new race. That brings the total to 18 classes and 17 races.

I’m all about options. I can spend, and have spent, hours, if not days, to pore through supplements to pick just the right options for my character. But one thing I loved about 4E, and one thing touted by Wizards, was the simplicity of it and the streamlined nature of the new beast. Sadly, I don’t think it’s there anymore. As I said, I understand completely the want of a company to make money but, with 4E, I think it’s too much and it’s definitely too soon (nine months!).

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Posted in: 4E, RPG

30 Responses to “Here comes the option train!”

Bossemeyer December 22nd, 2008 at 2:38 PM

I think its important to remember that Multi-classing is not the same in 4E as it was in 3E so those classes that take a level or two from 4 different classes won’t be..

The closest you can get is an Half Elf with a multi-class feat and a bard (if my understanding of the bard class is correct, don’t have a D&DI account) and ever then thats at most a few powers from outside the main class that i can’t see how could be group breaking…

Some people like having option or have the chance to say “No divine or martial, this is an Arcane Campaign” without a large group of classes and races its harder to make worlds unique or your own if you are so incline to make it that way and don’t have the time to write up your own classes and races.

reveal December 22nd, 2008 at 3:05 PM

@Dan – Why is it important to remember multi-classing?

I understand wanting, and liking, options, but I disagree it’s harder to make the world unique without them. Your characters uniqueness shouldn’t be based upon their class and race, it should be based upon how you roleplay it.

Da Dominus December 22nd, 2008 at 3:16 PM

Multiclassing I’d consider compared to 3E, where all of those classes create an ocean of possibilities. In 4E it’s less so because the multiclass is so limited now.

4E is very much streamlined and will continue to be. Meaning that rules would be simpler, not that they wouldn’t flood you with options.

Da Dominus´s last blog post..Dominion Cast 19 – Love Nerds

greywulf December 22nd, 2008 at 3:28 PM

While we’re in a ranting mood, what’s annoying me right now is that they’re releasing new classes but not including monster templates for them at the same time, so creating a foe who’s (say) a Bugbear Swordmage isn’t as easy as cracking open the DMG and making a Bugbear Paladin. Grrrrrr.

greywulf´s last blog post..Greywulf’s Games of the Year 2008

Viriatha December 22nd, 2008 at 3:31 PM

reveal has it correct. You don’t need a bunch of “core options” to make a good system. What you need is an adaptability so you can slot in the players ideas and creativity.

If you don’t have alot of time, players can and WILL do your work for you if you let them know you’re open to their ideas.

Viriatha´s last blog post..Royalty in Kynafir

reveal December 22nd, 2008 at 4:06 PM

@Da Dominus – That’s not “simpler” to me. That’s even more to worry about. Plus you can still multi-class, just with a bit more restriction, so it’s not completely out the window.

@greywulf – So how long until we get the DMG2?

@Viriatha – Exactly. Options are great but they’re no substitute for imaginative play.

Da Dominus December 22nd, 2008 at 4:33 PM

The system itself is simpler, but the options will remain varied (as you know, they’re trying to sell as many books a possible).

I don’t see how having more options substitutes for or threatens imaginative play.

Da Dominus´s last blog post..Dominion Cast 19 – Love Nerds

reveal December 22nd, 2008 at 4:44 PM

@Da Dominus – It doesn’t threaten imaginative play, per se. I think it adds a layer of complexity that is not needed. I also think that the more options you have, the more likely you are to be all about the numbers for your character. With less options, you must rely on your imagination to “fill in the blanks.”

Viriatha December 22nd, 2008 at 4:50 PM

I’ve played D&D in some form for almost 26 years now. I’ve watched alot of creative people just stop and let the books do it for them to the point where I’ve switched systems for my fantasy games.

I’ve also seen some very creative players be real munchkins. They have this cool idea and morph the idea with 4E options, picking and choosing what to take not based on the idea or the RP but on the numbers.

3.5 was bad enough (ghost troll anyone? dear god) but I think that new people who are just starting out in roleplaying are being done a serious disservice by having these ideas handed to them on a plate.

Da Dominus December 22nd, 2008 at 8:31 PM

@ reveal – Sounds like you’re making the Stormwind Fallacy

Scott December 22nd, 2008 at 8:34 PM

18 classes and 17 races? Sounds okay to me.

How many classes and races did 3.5 have? More than 18, and WAY more than 17. Even if we don’t count templates. And a lot of them came out within a relatively short time span. (Consider third-party supplements, and the number jumps still higher.)

There’s an argument to be made that that material was spread out more. But in 4e, a limited number of options is one of the most visible weaknesses of the system. It makes sense to expand the breadth (races, classes) and depth (powers) of the system early on by providing those options. New core classes came later to 3.5 because they weren’t needed in the same way — but prestige classes were, and 3.5 offered those by the shovelful, even early on.

As for magic items and powers/spells, those have always been offered in expansions. I can remember scouring modules and such back in the 1e days for those (and new monsters).

reveal December 22nd, 2008 at 9:11 PM

@Da Dominus – I disagree. I’m not saying anyone is playing “wrong.” There is no such thing as wrongbadfun in RPGs. Think of it this way; if I were to hand you a character sheet and say “You are a fighter. Come up with how you fight.” then you have to think less than if I say, “Here’s a list of 5 ways of fighting. Pick one.” You may have a blast playing either way, but I would prefer the former over the latter.

@Scott – Yeah, I was gonna say that 3.5 at least spread it out, but you beat me to it.

jonathan December 22nd, 2008 at 9:49 PM

Did you really _ever_ think they were going to limit our options? Simplicity is in how the game operates and what you bring to the table. Whatever lies in the books on the gaming shelf behind the table… well… those are just a whole lotta options you aren’t using.

jonathan´s last blog post..The Statistics of 4E Skill Challenges

reveal December 22nd, 2008 at 9:57 PM

@jonathan – Not really. It’s more the short time in which they’ve come out that surprises me.

Da Dominus December 23rd, 2008 at 12:19 AM

@ reveal: Little or open ended options actually requires more thinking than choosing from a list of options.

Plus, more options grant more freedom to have the fighting style you want mechanically represented – which takes nothing away from imaginative character portrayal.

Da Dominus´s last blog post..Dominion Cast 19 – Love Nerds

MJ Harnish December 23rd, 2008 at 6:39 AM

Just wait for another near or so and 18 classes will seem like the good-old-days. I agree that we’re being buried under an avalanche of choices and it’s only going to get worse. I don’t want to even see what Eberron is going to look like if they allow all of the core races, plus include all the Eberron-specific races: The entire setting will be buried under racial choices and look like a big, nasty mess.

What I’ve done for the 4E games I’ve run is limit the players’ options: In my latest game I let the group choose 4 core races to include in our world and then everything else got dumped, either completely or relegated to monster status.

Mad Brew December 23rd, 2008 at 11:08 AM

I cannot remember the timeline on releasing character option books for 3.x, but if it seems too quick this time around, perhaps they are trying to cover the losses accrued by their incomplete digital product?

Mad Brew´s last blog post..UPDATE: Alpha Omega Pricing & Collaborations

Dave T. Game December 23rd, 2008 at 1:40 PM

Greywulf: You’ll find that information in the Forgotten Realm’s Campaign Guide, which is the DM book (so it makes sense that the NPC info for Swordmage is in there)

Reveal: First, you can’t confuse streamlining of the rules and streamlining of options. One was claimed, the other I hadn’t heard claimed.

Secondly, the reason it’s better for me as a player is that there are fewer books I have to look at overall. If I’m playing a Cleric, I can limit to PHB, Divine Power, and maybe the setting book of whatever campaign world we’re playing in.

In 3e, I felt like I needed the PHB, PHB2, Spell Compendium, Complete Divine, Complete Warrior (for feats to change Turn Undead into something useful), and so on and so on. It’s much more siloed. Yes, there’s lots of options if I’m starting from scratch with no character class in mind, but that’s never been an issue for me.

However, rituals are still a big issue being all over the place. And the one that hasn’t changed a bit are magic items being in way too many places.

Dave T. Game´s last blog post..YouTube Tuesday: Singing about Kissing Wookies Edition

greywulf December 23rd, 2008 at 1:42 PM

@Dave Aha! That makes a lot more sense. Ok. I’m happy again

greywulf´s last blog post..Greywulf’s Games of the Year 2008

reveal December 23rd, 2008 at 2:02 PM

@Dave – Yeah, I guess when “streamlining” doesn’t mean the same to then as it does to me.

Right now, I see what you’re getting at. Options for specific classes in as few books is great. But that’s right now. What about the future? They’ve released a plethora of options in a very short period of time, especially compared to 3.5, and I don’t see it ending any time soon.

Dave T. Game December 23rd, 2008 at 2:35 PM

As I understand it, the planned release cycle for player supplements will be PHB2 (more core classes, not sure about other content, but hopefully it will just be focused on those classes), and the rest of the Divine Power and Arcane Power in the rest of the year.

The real question is if we’ll see Martial Power II in 2010 (or even 2009). Then we’ll be in serious overload with no end in sight.

Dave T. Game´s last blog post..YouTube Tuesday: Choose Your Own Edition

reveal December 23rd, 2008 at 3:01 PM

Looking at their site, next year brings Adventurer’s Vault 2, Arcane Power, Divine Power, DMG2, Monster Manual 2, Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead (a supplement which I’m sure will have additional options for clerics or for a necromancer-esque character), PHB2, Eberron Campaign Guide, Eberron Player’s Guide, and Primal Power. This will all be by October of 2009. That’s 16 months from the release of 4E.

Compare that to 3.5, released in July 2003, which had around 30 books released between then and July 2008, when 4E shelved.

Like I said, they are milking the hell out of 4E.

Dave T. Game December 23rd, 2008 at 3:54 PM

Well, calling it milking while others get what they want is fine, my point about reference books still stands.

For reference, Draconomicon is only a DM book and contains no player content. I expect Open Grave to be the same.

Dave T. Game´s last blog post..A million little pieces (of equipment)

reveal December 23rd, 2008 at 4:10 PM

Good to know about the Draconomicon.

If people want it, I’m not blaming Wizards for releasing them. I’m really surprised more than anything else.

Oz December 23rd, 2008 at 5:24 PM

All of these new classes and still no monk? Bah humbug.

Seriously, do we need all of these new classes? And will they make the PHB1 classes obsolete due to power creep?

Oz´s last blog post..Thundercats The Movie (not really)

Hammer December 23rd, 2008 at 7:18 PM

If we weren’t given the choice, half the players would be moaning about it and the other half would be designing their own races and classes (Remember, in theory any race in the MM is playable).

Instead we are getting lots of choice, questioning if it’s too much and people are still making up their own classes and races.
WOTC are dammed if they do and dammed if they don’t

Personally, I’d rather have PHB2 come out early when I’m likely to buy it and find it useful, then later on in 4e’s life when I’m going to be wondering if it is worth it with a 5th edition possibly round the corner.

Hammer´s last blog post..Rolling Mobile

Scott December 24th, 2008 at 3:55 AM

@Hammer: Well, that, and I think MJ Harnish has it right… having the options doesn’t mean you have to use the options.

Part of the book count is the split between “player books” and “GM books”, too. That’s new to 4e. If you only play, I suspect you actually need fewer books now to get all the options you can use.

The rate at which they’re publishing does seem pretty fast. I’m not sure it’s a bad idea, though.

Dave March 16th, 2009 at 8:07 PM

3 things:

1) The accelerated release of options probably has more to do with World of Warcraft than it does with 3.5e. WoW gamers can basically be anything and do anything, and that fits well with a free-form MMORPG. It doesn’t fit with a refereed (DMed) tabletop game, so this is just Wizards’ way of enticing the gaming market back to traditional systems. I hate all the options, but I hate MMORPGs more, so I support the initiative.

2) The article at the very top referred to the PHB2 as a “core” book. It’s not. The core consists of the PHB, the DMG and the MM, which is why these three have been released in the aptly-named “Core Rules Boxed Set,” and that’s all you really NEED to play. PHB2, DMG2, MM2, Draconomicon, Open Grave, all the campaign settings and everything else are OPTIONS.

If you don’t want to deal with options, you can tell your players you’re running a CORE game, and if they’re not satisfied, help them work out a house rule that fits the campaign … kind of like in the days of 2e, when you had Fighters, Clerics, Mages, Thieves, and a bunch of poorly-syntaxed optional classes that took too long to roll, and you TWEAKED your vanilla fighter to make him a barbarian or a swashbuckler or a knight in shining armor.

3) I forget 3.

Dave March 16th, 2009 at 8:19 PM

Addendum to #2 above:

I always found that letting my players homebrew these unique touches (with DM approval, of course) helped them cherish their characters more. They roleplayed better, took threats and challenges more seriously, and were less interested in rolling new character every session because they simply didn’t get bored as easily. They weren’t simply playing a sheet of statistics.

Essentially, we were creating our own “feats” to apply to our 2e characters, making them into “More Than Core.” When they added Feats to 3e as an actual game mechanic, they robbed the system of that creativity and personal involvement. Feats suck.

Etherrider April 19th, 2009 at 6:52 AM

I am not surprised that WoTc is continuing its marketing/R&D concepts that it developed in 3.0/3.5 in publishing many many books containing new spells, feats, classes, and races. They sold very well and so during the 4e development they adapted a plan to do that as well.

I can live with 4e’s PHB2, PHB3, PHB4 (and the other associated CORE 2 cooks) as bieng sort of “updates” or the like. As example, the DMG2 is going to expand on the concept of skill challenges, which is okay. In all these I can look at them and decide if they are worth my $$ or not.

What I am more disappointed about is the fact that they are publishing campaign books which has a new class/feat/race/power/etc.. that will “encourage” people to purchase them as well to get them. I think it would be perfectly sutiable to use the CORE # books following to reprint some in a more compliled format. There was nothing more frustrating for me in 3.5 than having to uncover where someone’s (published NPC or visiting PC) feat came from after a while with a ton of books sometimes having just 1 small entry on a new feat, ala Book of Horror.